Your disbelief at the barbarism and, as you put it, idolatry of Israelis and Zionist Jews is very palpable. You’re very upset about it. How can they be so enthusiastically barbarous!?
I have a theory that I think is obvious, but is being subconsciously overlooked.
Israelis and Zionists have so perverted the idea of the “Chosen People” that every foul act of inhumanity is justified by it. The chosen people, in their eyes, go beyond mere übermenschen to literal gods walking the earth. Everyone else by comparison are filth to be dealt with as they see fit.
Martin, you say you can’t see how human shields can be used as targets? If Palestinians took over a building in Tel Aviv full of Jewish hostages, do you think the Israeli Air Force would bomb the building? You know the answer. The wrong shields.
Zach, you say you can’t understand how an atheist Jew, or Zionists, can justify every possible perverse Israeli act. They have embraced the belief that Jews can do no wrong. How can a chosen, god-like creature do anything wrong to the untermenschen sub-humans of the world? Not possible.
The challenge for non-Zionist Jews is how to get the Jewish supremacists back on track, either to a proper secular humanism, or to a proper understanding of Judaism. It’s clear you have your work cut out for you.
I think it’s important to always mention that Zionism is entirely a European phenomenon. Non-European Jews were not involved and not consulted. Half the Jews in Israel are from the Middle East, and have been pulled in as an afterthought as migrants to be unskilled laborers and to bulk up Israel’s Jewish population. The ruling elite in Israel are, by and large, Ashkenazi Jews.
Great discussion. Thank you. We can understand Jewish disdain for Germans/ german products years after the event. Somehow, we can’t comprehend why Palestinians might resent their ongoing elimination and incarceration.
I was actually left with this moment in the conversation that was to me the mot arresting. Zach saying his mother still will not buy German product and the thoughts that most of the things that were to me treasure of childhood, like the symbols that emerge from my grandmother´s home, are now symbols of evil. It is profoundly painful and unforgivable.
1) Jewish people, Judaism and Israel are concepts embroiled in the narrative and practice of the ruling mafia in the world and their institutions. The decades of inaction on the part of media, academia, religion, etc to deal with the daily corruption of those concepts and terms together with the routine war crimes of empire resulted in the wholesale general barbarity we see today which Jews are part of.
2) There is a parallel, and separate, gradual and continuous process (about 250 years in the making) of a “natural” disintegration of historic Judaism which is separate from the political realm. This is the emptying of Judaism from clear definition and was described clearly by the Israeli scholar Yeshayahu Leibowitz.
The words: Money, Fraud, Empire (Fascism) can’t really be avoided from the first process (barbarity) which this conversation was about.
Leibowitz original work is (I'm afraid) 95% (or more) in Hebrew! As a Zionist his writing accompanied the state of Israel from the beginning and unfortunately academia (in its stupidity and short sightedness) was there mainly to ridicule him while showing him some respect too. This dual pronged approach of ridicule & “respect” was very successful in neutralising him as a staunch anti the combined secular-religious fraud against his people. Yes, the "construction of identity" is certainly a central element and all this was (and still is) missing. The Israeli construction was fascist & militarism on behalf of empire dressed as "Jewish State" which was entirely fraudulent. Similarly, holocaust and antisemitism became a replacement for Jewish content and is the new religion of Jews and beyond - in fraudulent manner for vested interests. So your guest's shame of "Judaism" and any linkage to it is justified and understandable, but this is not a mistake that happened in Zionism, its fuelled by interests of money and imperialism and naivety and even collusion of large parts of professional intelligentsia.
I think we agree. I strongly object to this formulation "Jewish people, Judaism and Israel are concepts embroiled in the narrative and practice of the ruling mafia in the world and their institutions."
There is nothing really to object to it as I haven't expressed an opinion (of mine) .
1) Is it not a fact that they speak on behalf of Judaism? (Judaism here is mainly in the sense of representing ALL Jews, i.e. world Jewry... But also, of Judaism as the "religion").
2) It is well known that Torah Jews (Neturei Karta) say it all the time: that Judaism has been hijacked from its meaning by Zionist operation.
3) Israel managed to position itself as a serious magnet for international army and security industries with a nearby labs (Gaza & West Bank). One does not have to possess vivid imagination to think of all the dirty financial dealings and the huge amount of activity that this brings from all over the world.
4) You can also add to all this Zionist organizations operating all across the world in various political activities to increase and maintain the profile of the entire world operation. ADL for example, promulgating narratives of antisemitism in cahoots with Israel. Yoav Shamir documentary "Defamation" 2009 is a hugely important(!) document:
All those elements together - merely stating facts - need coordination of a very large multi-national corruption racket. You can think of the case of threats levelled at members of the ICC by secret services of Israel to complete the picture. The overall definition of the term "Israel" becomes more troubling.
Analysis of fellow Jews (Zionists) under the banner of "what is happening to their internal identity" as a topic of net psychological-sociological dynamics which is isolated and autonomous from imperial manipulations and activities is an overvaluation of matters of ideology/theology over the hard forces which operate on the populace. I'm not saying that talking about sociological dynamics is without meaning - far from it - but there is a massive "iceberg" here that is less talked about.
Lastly, here is Jeff Halper giving an eye opening presentation on above third point:
"Palestine globalization and pacification industry"
Your disbelief at the barbarism and, as you put it, idolatry of Israelis and Zionist Jews is very palpable. You’re very upset about it. How can they be so enthusiastically barbarous!?
I have a theory that I think is obvious, but is being subconsciously overlooked.
Israelis and Zionists have so perverted the idea of the “Chosen People” that every foul act of inhumanity is justified by it. The chosen people, in their eyes, go beyond mere übermenschen to literal gods walking the earth. Everyone else by comparison are filth to be dealt with as they see fit.
Martin, you say you can’t see how human shields can be used as targets? If Palestinians took over a building in Tel Aviv full of Jewish hostages, do you think the Israeli Air Force would bomb the building? You know the answer. The wrong shields.
Zach, you say you can’t understand how an atheist Jew, or Zionists, can justify every possible perverse Israeli act. They have embraced the belief that Jews can do no wrong. How can a chosen, god-like creature do anything wrong to the untermenschen sub-humans of the world? Not possible.
The challenge for non-Zionist Jews is how to get the Jewish supremacists back on track, either to a proper secular humanism, or to a proper understanding of Judaism. It’s clear you have your work cut out for you.
I think it’s important to always mention that Zionism is entirely a European phenomenon. Non-European Jews were not involved and not consulted. Half the Jews in Israel are from the Middle East, and have been pulled in as an afterthought as migrants to be unskilled laborers and to bulk up Israel’s Jewish population. The ruling elite in Israel are, by and large, Ashkenazi Jews.
Great discussion. Thank you. We can understand Jewish disdain for Germans/ german products years after the event. Somehow, we can’t comprehend why Palestinians might resent their ongoing elimination and incarceration.
I was actually left with this moment in the conversation that was to me the mot arresting. Zach saying his mother still will not buy German product and the thoughts that most of the things that were to me treasure of childhood, like the symbols that emerge from my grandmother´s home, are now symbols of evil. It is profoundly painful and unforgivable.
Maybe she should still not buy German products as both of you agree that Germany is the most pro-Israel nation in the world.
1) Jewish people, Judaism and Israel are concepts embroiled in the narrative and practice of the ruling mafia in the world and their institutions. The decades of inaction on the part of media, academia, religion, etc to deal with the daily corruption of those concepts and terms together with the routine war crimes of empire resulted in the wholesale general barbarity we see today which Jews are part of.
2) There is a parallel, and separate, gradual and continuous process (about 250 years in the making) of a “natural” disintegration of historic Judaism which is separate from the political realm. This is the emptying of Judaism from clear definition and was described clearly by the Israeli scholar Yeshayahu Leibowitz.
The words: Money, Fraud, Empire (Fascism) can’t really be avoided from the first process (barbarity) which this conversation was about.
Point one is nonsense. Leibowitz point is about the spirit of Judaism in the construction of identity. Not about Judaism itself.
Leibowitz original work is (I'm afraid) 95% (or more) in Hebrew! As a Zionist his writing accompanied the state of Israel from the beginning and unfortunately academia (in its stupidity and short sightedness) was there mainly to ridicule him while showing him some respect too. This dual pronged approach of ridicule & “respect” was very successful in neutralising him as a staunch anti the combined secular-religious fraud against his people. Yes, the "construction of identity" is certainly a central element and all this was (and still is) missing. The Israeli construction was fascist & militarism on behalf of empire dressed as "Jewish State" which was entirely fraudulent. Similarly, holocaust and antisemitism became a replacement for Jewish content and is the new religion of Jews and beyond - in fraudulent manner for vested interests. So your guest's shame of "Judaism" and any linkage to it is justified and understandable, but this is not a mistake that happened in Zionism, its fuelled by interests of money and imperialism and naivety and even collusion of large parts of professional intelligentsia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwElRs8gANQ
(If you are a Hebrew speaker a link to the full programme can be found in the description box).
I think we agree. I strongly object to this formulation "Jewish people, Judaism and Israel are concepts embroiled in the narrative and practice of the ruling mafia in the world and their institutions."
At leat without further explanation.
There is nothing really to object to it as I haven't expressed an opinion (of mine) .
1) Is it not a fact that they speak on behalf of Judaism? (Judaism here is mainly in the sense of representing ALL Jews, i.e. world Jewry... But also, of Judaism as the "religion").
2) It is well known that Torah Jews (Neturei Karta) say it all the time: that Judaism has been hijacked from its meaning by Zionist operation.
3) Israel managed to position itself as a serious magnet for international army and security industries with a nearby labs (Gaza & West Bank). One does not have to possess vivid imagination to think of all the dirty financial dealings and the huge amount of activity that this brings from all over the world.
4) You can also add to all this Zionist organizations operating all across the world in various political activities to increase and maintain the profile of the entire world operation. ADL for example, promulgating narratives of antisemitism in cahoots with Israel. Yoav Shamir documentary "Defamation" 2009 is a hugely important(!) document:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTAjc1OSrmY
All those elements together - merely stating facts - need coordination of a very large multi-national corruption racket. You can think of the case of threats levelled at members of the ICC by secret services of Israel to complete the picture. The overall definition of the term "Israel" becomes more troubling.
Analysis of fellow Jews (Zionists) under the banner of "what is happening to their internal identity" as a topic of net psychological-sociological dynamics which is isolated and autonomous from imperial manipulations and activities is an overvaluation of matters of ideology/theology over the hard forces which operate on the populace. I'm not saying that talking about sociological dynamics is without meaning - far from it - but there is a massive "iceberg" here that is less talked about.
Lastly, here is Jeff Halper giving an eye opening presentation on above third point:
"Palestine globalization and pacification industry"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JgtmQIMKLw